The President-Elect

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The President-Elect

Post by steve on Thu Nov 06, 2008 9:57 am

First and foremost, I want to offer my congratulations to Mr. Obama and his supporters for their solid victory. It's obvious that his message struck a resonant chord with a majority of the electorate. That being said, I will admit that he was not my choice, and I am still very skeptical that he will be able to implement his plans without reaching deeply into everyone's pocket for more money. I hope that I am wrong, but only time will tell. So for those of you who felt it necessary to attack the McCain/Palin ticket while advocating your choice of candidate, relish the election results and rejoice with your like-minded friends. I will bide my time and hope that before the first Obama term is over, I don't have to display my bumper sticker that says, "Don't Blame Me - I Voted For McCain"

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Re: The President-Elect

Post by KevinNSaisi on Thu Nov 06, 2008 11:23 am

Steve,
Please remember that not all people who were against Mr. McCain were avid supporters of Mr. Obama . Personally, my assessment of Mr. Mccain was based upon his ticket, not blind allegience for Mr. Obama. While each candidate made mistakes, I believe that Ms. Palin was the mistake that kept on giving. Mr. McCain would have done better if he had picked a more seasoned running mate. If you watched the election from the start, you will see changes in his approach that were not positive. His initial message resonated better with a wider audience. As he reinvented himself under the direction of his campaign manager, and with the influence of the Palin supporters, he lost favor with the electorate. In the end, his message was not one of what he would do, or why his platform was better, but rather why Mr. Obama was wrong. Negative campaigning is not the way to win over a nation.

In the last week of the campaign, I visited both campaign web sites. Mr. Obama's web site spoke of change and vision, and didn't mention Mr. McCain. In contrast, Mr. McCain's web site had large banners stating why Mr. Obama was wrong.

Mr. Obama may have to tweak his plan slightly. I fully expect that many in politics will be upset when he goes aftyer what have been considered "sacred cows". Discontent is inevitable, but we must look at the end result. Mr. Obama is the first Democrat I have heard speaking about cutting out the duplicative offices in government. Between the savings in that area and the more efficient withdrawal from the Iraq Civil War, I see that Mr. Obama's budget will likely be much better for our economy than Mr. McCain's. Yes, he wants to spend money in other areas, but those expenditures are designed to improve our nation either economically or in regards to safe infastructure.

The biggest difference I see in the two candidates, is in foreign policy. While Mr. McCain supported a "bomb and spend" approach, Mr. Obama supports a more diplomatic approach. Instead of bombing countries for WMDs that don't exist, Mr. Obama will work with those countries to come to a reasonable conclusion. He can do this because he understands the reason others hate the U.S.A. . If you look back at our history, our leaders have used our military as a bully. We have attacked nations without provication and have killed hundreds of thousands of defenseless civilians. Our military mission has been to prevent the spread of other beliefs and instill our belief system wherever we go. If we want something (oil), we go in and take it rather than playing nice. Being a prodominatly christian nation, our efforts are seen as an affront to those with other beliefs. Mr. Obama will use an approach that will be less confrontational and more diplomatic.

One reason the McCain campaign failed is because of Ms. Palin. Can you imagine how those with other spiritual beliefs would respond to having a Vice President who belongs to such a conservative christian religion? The sect to which she belongs was reportely ousted from the mainstream AG religion for being too radical. One of the tenants of her beliefs is that members need to "infiltrate" all aspects of business and government. Couple that with their belief that those who aren't a part of their religion are sinful or evil, and you see that it wouldn't rest well with other religions. Also, consider that Mr. McCain was demonstrating mild signs of dementia while on the campaign trail and we see a liklihood that Ms. Palin would have likely been in charge within a couple of years. When we look at the candidates on a superficial level(as does the press), it is easy to overlook the deeper dynamics.

I could go on further, but this software has limits on the size of a post. I will likely follow-up to whatever response you may have.

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Re: The President-Elect

Post by T on Thu Nov 06, 2008 8:45 pm

wrote:Our military mission has been to prevent the spread of other beliefs and instill our belief system wherever we go.

I always found it ironic that Mr. Bush wanted to bring Democracy to Iraq by force. Or is it an oxymoron?

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Re: The President-Elect

Post by steve on Thu Nov 06, 2008 9:01 pm

Kevin,
I cannot disagree that McCain might have fared better with a different VP selection. Having the benefit of 20/20 hindsight, he should have selected Mitt Romney with his proven track record of reversing fiscal losses. Given the current state of the nation's economy, Romney would have been a strong attraction to the millions who witnessed their investments and savings go down the drain (although I'm hopeful that there will be a rebound over time.) I also disagreed with the negative tone of his campaign's messages. He lost sight of his party's traditional values and tried to be too much of a centrist - a position in which he didn't know what to do...so he attacked. But enough of the campaign and the election; it's in the history books now.

Mr. Obama definitely will have to "tweak" his plan...and more than just a little. Coupled with the existing bailouts of Bear Stearns, Wall Street, AIG insurance and more banks than a person can name, there is now the likelihood that the auto industry will obtain a $25B "loan" in addition to their existing $25B loan for technology improvements. All of these actions are coming out of the pockets of the taxpayers, and there is a growing sense that the taxpayers are fed up. These financial rescue plans added to Mr. Obama's stated desire to implement national healthcare, increased educational programs, and other assistance for low-income households while providing tax cuts to 95% of U.S. taxpayers are creating a situation where even a two-fold increase in the tax rate for the top 2% won't begin to cover the cost of all these requirements. And now that automakers are in Washington, hat in hand, how many other industries are going to be right behind them saying, "What about us?" Obama has already hinted that he may not b e able to achieve his objectives in only one term. Seems a bit premature to be back-pedalling before he's even sworn in. For our country's sake, I hope that Barack Obama is half the visionary and unifier he's portrayed to be.

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Re: The President-Elect

Post by steve on Thu Nov 06, 2008 9:13 pm

T wrote:
wrote:Our military mission has been to prevent the spread of other beliefs and instill our belief system wherever we go.

I always found it ironic that Mr. Bush wanted to bring Democracy to Iraq by force. Or is it an oxymoron?

I don't believe that it was Bush's intention to bring U.S.-style democracy to Iraq; he wanted to prevent an Iran-style Shiite theocracy there. He knew that a militant Shiite theocracy would not be satisfied with merely taking Iraq, they would attempt to overtake the predominantly Sunni Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and United Arab Emirates thereby putting a stranglehold on the flow of oil to the West. (Yes, it ALL comes down to oil)

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Re: The President-Elect

Post by KevinNSaisi on Thu Nov 06, 2008 9:32 pm

Please remember his plans to trim the duplicative departments from the budget. If you only knew how many different departments we had, many of which are doing the same job, and in some cases, competing with each other. The program I work with out of the Office of The Surgeon General is being threatened by a similar program being planned for the Department of Homeland Security. I have sent off a letter to Mr. Obama explaining my feelings on the issue.

If he is able to cut waste out of the budget, cut out our spanding on wars, and stimulate growth in domestic industries, he could easily meet the budget without foresaking his promise to the middle class. I make no ascertions regarding those making over $100,000 per year , but those who actually skimp and save to pay for their posessions will not have an increase. If Mr. Obama's plan is successful, we could likely see prosperity extend to the point that those on welfare would be capable of earning sufficient income to make ends meet.


Previous administrations enacted and supported NAFTA and other free trade agreements. The result was a mass exodous of jobs from the United States. Trade agreements need to provide equity. they need to provide provisions to set limits and utilize tarriffs. The U.S. has minimum wage, which requires companies to pay $6.50 per hour as opposed to $6.00 a day for labor. If we leel the paaying field bu imposing limits and tarriffs on imports, our domestic industries will be able to compete with foreign industries, some of whom are owned by their government. It is like allowing PBS to run commercials and expecting a commercial station with no government subsidy to be able to compete. It just doesn't work.

If you increase competiveness of U.S. products, you increase jobs. With more jobs, you have more income to tax. With more income to tax, you have more purchases being made, that in turn increase jobs, and so on.

Now, one thing that causes problems in the country is foreign corporations owning businesses in the U.S. . It is my understanding that these organizations are not required to pay taxes upon their income. If we tewak the tax code for corporations to mandate that any corporation doing business in the U.S. pay taxes upon domestic revenue, then these coprorations will lose their appeal.

How about call centers? I was a part of the Dell customer service department at a call center. Everytime I had to interact with a Technical Support represenative, I expected to hear an India accent on the other end. Why do these calls go to India? Because they pay much less in wages. One way to keep this from happening would be to place a tarriff on all leased data lines used for voice traffic. This would exclude domestic phone traffic, but would cover the lines used for exporting jobs. Here in Rumford, many people could benefit from a call center job.

Okay, I might be getting near the limit for content, so I will stop now. Smile

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Re: The President-Elect

Post by KevinNSaisi on Thu Nov 06, 2008 9:40 pm

Oh, I forgot, I have one idea regarding the energy crisis. I believe in the right for people to own and keep property. I have a problem with using eminent domain to take real estate against one's will. However, I have a totally different opinion on intellectual property that is held, but not used. Case-in-point: Our oil companies hold patents on alternative fuel vehicles that could cut opur reliance on oil. They hold on to them in an effort to assure that they can continue to soak us and they make big bucks. I perpose that the patent laws be changed to reflect that a patent holder who does not develop and market a product based upn his/her patent within 3 years, looses the patent. This is especially important in the area of energy. There are MIT grads who have developed vehicles that can run on little to no fuel. However, they cannot market it because doing so would violate a patent. It is time our country change the rules so that the oil companies cannot hold us hostage.

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Re: The President-Elect

Post by T on Thu Nov 06, 2008 9:53 pm

wrote:I don't believe that it was Bush's intention to bring U.S.-style democracy to Iraq.
Correct

The stated reason was WMDs until none were found. Instead of withdrawing, the "mission" changed to one of bringing Democracy and freedom to Iraq and the region...by force. I don't remember Mr. Bush ever saying it was for oil.

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Re: The President-Elect

Post by Timeout on Thu Nov 06, 2008 10:40 pm

Steve - Welcome back from self-exile. I'm in the wait-and-see mode myself, perhaps I'm a born skeptic. I voted Obama because I couldn't vote McCain.

America is just over 200 years young. Many civilizations have risen and fallen since the beginning of man's time on earth. We were born into this beautiful country and sometimes are blind to the fact that history is and always has been cyclical.

Many say we are entering a new age where unity and love of our fellow man is becoming central to survival. Certainly I never thought when I was a child watching the news in the 60's that I would see a time when blacks could vote. We could not have envisioned Watergate and the countless other scandals that leave many of us skeptical and suspicious of leadership.

It seems our culture is always looking for a hero, someone to reassure us that things will be okay. Reagan filled that role for a time; Bush could never quite fit the part. Obama seems to have that soothing quality America's ruffled nerves are looking for. To believe one man could solve all the problems is absurd and yet we yearn for that comfort. His election seems to imply that the country is ready for some new paradigm shift that will raise consciousness and bring unity to the team.

How does that paradigm shift come about in a world that has yet to figure out how to share enough of its resources so that people will have enough food to eat for a day? We live in a culture that advocates "survival of the fittest"...isn't that an essential element to the basic nature of man as part of the animal kingdom? I know, we are civilized...how civilized are we and just who is defining civilized?

I will leave Kevin and others to come up with the detailed plans that work out the solutions, for myself I'm still pondering the larger issues - we all come to our own conclusions and solutions in our own way. Anyway, keep posting, we need the diversity of opinion.

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Re: The President-Elect

Post by steve on Fri Nov 07, 2008 12:33 pm

Timeout, I appreciate and respect your perspectives on the myriad problems facing us and, more importantly, the underlying issues that drive those problems. It is obvious that you are a deep-thinker; I, unfortunately, live much closer to the surface (although some would say the bottom, LOL). You seem to hold out hope that the rudimentary goodness in all people will overcome aggression and adversity, and I would desperately like to share your optimism. Unfortunately, in my nearly 60 years on this mortal coil, I have seen too many instances of man wreaking havoc on fellow man to believe that, barring some earth-stopping intervention by a being more powerful than any of us, man's propensity for violence, greed, aggression and retribution will not be impeded.

Timeout wrote:
Many say we are entering a new age where unity and love of our fellow man is becoming central to survival. Certainly I never thought when I was a child watching the news in the 60's that I would see a time when blacks could vote. We could not have envisioned Watergate and the countless other scandals that leave many of us skeptical and suspicious of leadership.

Today, we are dealing with a world in which a growing proportion of one of the major religions is sworn to the destruction of the West, the Great Satan. In some respects, I can see that their complaints are valid: the "liberators" turned into "occupiers" destroying their homes and altering their way of life, although we were hailed as saviors when we routed Sadam from Kuwait, a point at which we should have continued on to Baghdad and completed the regime change. Bush the Elder chose poorly when he decided to stop at the Iraq-Kuwait-Saudi border and almost paid for it with his life when Bin Laden attempted to have him killed. As a result, Bush the Younger pursued a vendetta against Bin Laden and used it as an excuse to overthrow Sadam. A poor choice, no doubt, one that could have been avoided if Bill Clinton had eliminated Bin Laden when he had the chance during his presidency. Regardless, we now have a faction dedicated to the demise of us and our way of life. And although Obama would like to negotiate with Iran and the radicals it sponsors, he will have to face the fact that there is no possibility of negotiating with those people. They only understand the law of the sword and the blood oath to destroy the Great Satan.

So while I admire and respect your desire for a "kinder, gentler world", the reality is that we are not there, nor will we be in the near future. As such, I am an advocate for a strong defense and leaders that are not afraid to use our military to ensure survival of the republic.

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Re: The President-Elect

Post by Timeout on Fri Nov 07, 2008 2:29 pm

Steve - Thank you for your response. I can't disagree with a thing you've written, except perhaps for your interpretation of my view. I have to agree that I often hold out hope that the basic goodness in people will override their basic, very human instincts for greed, aggression, violence, retribution, and may I add lust. I'm optimistic because of changes I've made within myself (long way to go still), yet aware that I used to naively think all people wanted to "change" or "grow". I have since learned we are not all on the same bus trip. I guess I think people are still looking for that savior, hero or father figure to rescue us from our troubles. I don't believe that exists in any one person. (As an aside, I think that is the strength of Len Greaney because he has a fatherly sort of wisdom with an educated voice that reassures people.) When we say that we are all ready to live in a "kinder, gentler" world, to me we are like children parroting adult words until we comprehend the meaning.


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Re: The President-Elect

Post by steve on Fri Nov 07, 2008 5:14 pm

Timeout - If I misrepresented you, I sincerely apologize. I intended it to be a compliment. Kind-hearted people like yourself provide a refreshing counterpoint to people like me who have become hardened and cynical. To illustrate my attitude, I want to publicly disagree with the President-Elect's statement today that he wants to initiate another stimulus payment to the American taxpayers. And he wants to have it happen before his inauguration!!! Where is all this money coming from?? Hint: that sucking sound is the vacuum being applied to your wallet. This will not be covered by cutting spending in other areas, or removing troops from Iraq, or reducing the size of government (which will not happen under his administration). This will be paid for by the 2009 Income Tax INCREASE to all brackets, not just the top 2%. What's that from the Obama camp? "Surprise!! Fooled you!!"

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Re: The President-Elect

Post by Guest on Fri Nov 07, 2008 6:03 pm

OBAMA is the man. My vote counted. Wooohoo


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Re: The President-Elect

Post by KevinNSaisi on Fri Nov 07, 2008 8:58 pm

If the leaders of the Middle East are so unreasonable and unlikely to be willing to speak with Mr. Obama, why is it that the leaders of Venesuela, Iraq and even Hamas have contacted him already with congratulations on his election? I agree with many others in the world, including the leaders of many nations, that Mr. Obama's approach will bring a change to our global society. If you listen to the sermon of Reverend Wright, you will hear the analysis of how we earned the designation as the Great Satan. As Reverend Wright states, our government has been killing inocent civilians for years (Hiroshima, Nagasaki, etc) Our government has killed hundreds of thousands of civilians, and now, when someone fights back, we get upset ofver a few thousand.

Under Mr. Obama, I perceive that the efforts would be to attempt to put this unfortunate past behind us. The focus would be upon diplomatic efforts rather than aggressive acts. It is strange, when a bully stops beating up a smaller child, the child is less likely to become angry with the bully. Perhaps it is time for us to try peace. If we can achieve peace in Rumford, it can be achieved in the world. Human beings are human beings, regardless of where they live.

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Re: The President-Elect

Post by steve on Sat Nov 08, 2008 5:15 am

KevinNSaisi wrote:If the leaders of the Middle East are so unreasonable and unlikely to be willing to speak with Mr. Obama, why is it that the leaders of Venesuela, Iraq and even Hamas have contacted him already with congratulations on his election? I agree with many others in the world, including the leaders of many nations, that Mr. Obama's approach will bring a change to our global society. If you listen to the sermon of Reverend Wright, you will hear the analysis of how we earned the designation as the Great Satan. As Reverend Wright states, our government has been killing inocent civilians for years (Hiroshima, Nagasaki, etc) Our government has killed hundreds of thousands of civilians, and now, when someone fights back, we get upset ofver a few thousand.

Unless the revisionists have completely re-written history, we were at war when we bombed Hiroshima and Nagasaki - a war that drew us in by the unprovoked bombing of out naval base at Pearl Harbor (or did that fact slip your mind?) Hiroshima and Nagasaki were industrial centers producing, among other things, the tools of war used by the Imperial Japanese forces. President Truman agonized over the decision to use the weapons, but he also recognized that it was going to take an event of that magnitude to convince the fanatical Japanese military that further aggression would not be in their best interest. Oh, and of course, since we are the Great Satan, we rebuilt their country (and Germany as well) to the point that they have become the second strongest economy on the planet. Yeah, we're really bad folks!

Under Mr. Obama, I perceive that the efforts would be to attempt to put this unfortunate past behind us. The focus would be upon diplomatic efforts rather than aggressive acts. It is strange, when a bully stops beating up a smaller child, the child is less likely to become angry with the bully. Perhaps it is time for us to try peace. If we can achieve peace in Rumford, it can be achieved in the world. Human beings are human beings, regardless of where they live.

I would welcome peace, but it is not going to be achieved by simply wishing for it or putting forth oratorical platitudes. Diplomacy works only when both sides agree to discuss their differences in a civil, humane manner. The muslim jihadists, the south american dictator and the russian strongman don't want to coexist with America, they want to defeat us and destroy our freedoms of which they are envious. And, yes, humans are humans, but their behavior and attitudes are not the same. We do not live in a one-size-fits-all world, and because of human nature, we never will.

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Re: The President-Elect

Post by KevinNSaisi on Sat Nov 08, 2008 7:52 am

steve wrote:
Unless the revisionists have completely re-written history, we were at war when we bombed Hiroshima and Nagasaki - a war that drew us in by the unprovoked bombing of out naval base at Pearl Harbor (or did that fact slip your mind?) Hiroshima and Nagasaki were industrial centers producing, among other things, the tools of war used by the Imperial Japanese forces. President Truman agonized over the decision to use the weapons, but he also recognized that it was going to take an event of that magnitude to convince the fanatical Japanese military that further aggression would not be in their best interest. Oh, and of course, since we are the Great Satan, we rebuilt their country (and Germany as well) to the point that they have become the second strongest economy on the planet. Yeah, we're really bad folks!

First of all Steve, let me say that I don't appreciate your tone. Sarcasm does not make for positive discussion. This alone tells me that you may not be willing to accept what I am saying.

Yes, I recall Pearl Harbor, a military base where a number of military personnel died from the bombing. But if I recall history, the primary goal of the attack was to sink the fleet. I certainly don't see an attack on a military base as justification for killing 140,000 civilians. Yes the cities were rebuilt, but people cannot be rebuilt.

Under your logic, the Iraqi extremists have shown great restraint. They have only claimed a few thousand lives, as opposed to the hundreds of thousands of civilains our military has claimed over the years.


steve wrote:I would welcome peace, but it is not going to be achieved by simply wishing for it or putting forth oratorical platitudes. Diplomacy works only when both sides agree to discuss their differences in a civil, humane manner. The muslim jihadists, the south american dictator and the russian strongman don't want to coexist with America, they want to defeat us and destroy our freedoms of which they are envious. And, yes, humans are humans, but their behavior and attitudes are not the same. We do not live in a one-size-fits-all world, and because of human nature, we never will.

How do you know what they want? Have you spoken with them directly, or are you reflecting the propaganda that may be being fed to us? Why not give Obama's appraoch to the situation a chance instead of tearing it down?

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Re: The President-Elect

Post by Timeout on Sat Nov 08, 2008 10:06 am

Kevin, it's okay for people to express anger...don't take it as a personal attack on you. God, I can hear my third grade teacher, Mrs. Swanson, saying, "Don't take that tone with me young lady!" Great, now I'm having flashbacks...lol...I'm going back to bed.

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Re: The President-Elect

Post by Timeout on Sat Nov 08, 2008 10:11 am

BTW, we are all worried about what's going to happen. No offense to Steve but I don't think he or any one of us is powerful enough to determine the future. Personally, I agree with him. It takes only one person to forgive but it takes two for reconcilliation. Both parties have to be willing. You cannot mandate peace Kevin, not in the world and not in town. We don't have it just because you say so or because you want it...Steve's right, it's not human nature to get along all the time...there will always be one or more fights on the table. All you can do is act peacefully yourself. That's it. I've seen you undermine your own stance on an issue over and over by leaving a conversation after deciding the other person isn't responding correctly. You have something to say that's valuable - say it!! And then let the discussion continue. Okay, now I'm really going back to bed.

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Re: The President-Elect

Post by KevinNSaisi on Sat Nov 08, 2008 11:05 am

Timeout wrote:BTW, we are all worried about what's going to happen. No offense to Steve but I don't think he or any one of us is powerful enough to determine the future. Personally, I agree with him. It takes only one person to forgive but it takes two for reconcilliation. Both parties have to be willing. You cannot mandate peace Kevin, not in the world and not in town. We don't have it just because you say so or because you want it...Steve's right, it's not human nature to get along all the time...there will always be one or more fights on the table. All you can do is act peacefully yourself. That's it. I've seen you undermine your own stance on an issue over and over by leaving a conversation after deciding the other person isn't responding correctly. You have something to say that's valuable - say it!! And then let the discussion continue. Okay, now I'm really going back to bed.

Timeout,
My comments about Steve's writing style are calling him out for using tactics designed to undermine the opponents position. I am looking for a cordial conversation based upon the topic (Reverand Wright's political statements), not an analysis of the speaker (Reverand Wright) nor the unrelated issue of racial oppression. To include those confuses the reader and brings in factors that are not a part of the controversial comments. Once we have addressed the political topics, I would be happy to consider participating in a discussion on race, oppression, or even how turnips grow, but at this point I am looking to stay on topic.


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Re: The President-Elect

Post by Timeout on Sat Nov 08, 2008 11:22 am

I give up.

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Re: The President-Elect

Post by KevinNSaisi on Sat Nov 08, 2008 11:27 am

All I am asking is for straight discussion.

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Re: The President-Elect

Post by Guest on Sat Nov 08, 2008 11:32 am

No, Kevin, you spin things so that others come off as wrong and misinterpreting what you write, when, in fact, you are not always clear on the points you are trying to make or on the discussions you are trying to start.

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Re: The President-Elect

Post by KevinNSaisi on Sat Nov 08, 2008 12:29 pm

I just admitted to not being as clear as I could have been in another thread. However, I believe I did clarify my thougts in subsequent posts. If a person has a question as to what I am saying, I appreciate them asking.

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Re: The President-Elect

Post by 911Dispatcher on Sat Nov 08, 2008 8:45 pm

With all this scare about war and peace, can Obama solve the problem, etc., I'd like to put this thought in everyone's head. Remember the cold war and how long we all lived in fear that Russia was going to bomb us. Remember those "optimistic people" (from steve) that made movements to help end the cold war. If it can happen once it can happen again, even those from Maine (see example below).

http://www.samanthasmith.info/

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